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My argument is in 2012 that we had a QB through 13 games 25 TDs and 8 Picks, lot of yards as the 4th ranked O a great running game and above average OL with muscle hamster Doug Martin. Bucs still had a losing record at 6-7. The defense blew two double digit leads in the 4th quarter, lead in the last 2 minutes against Washington and a shootout against the Saints. The only time that formula worked somewhat was in 2010 with a 10-6 record. Blount was the RB with 1,000+ yard Decent OL.. Freeman had lot of TD passes with few turnovers. Defense created a lot of turnovers. But many of the teams the Bucs beat in 2010 were bad. (9-1 with Detroit the only bad team loss) 6 games against winning teams the Bucs were 1-5. What is sad is that our defense since 2010 has been so bad is the Bucs can not beat the bad teams like they did in 2010

The Eagles were not a great team in 2012 (4-12). The Saints swept the  Bucs with a 7-9 record. Rams had a losing record.at 7-8-1. The Giants were the defending SB champions but only 9-7 in 2012 and did not make the playoffs. Defense was 32nd against the pass but it was first against the run. Much like this year except the competition the Bucs have played so far is better in 2019 than 2012. What I have seen even good QB play, a strong running game does not mean anything unless you have a semi competent defense. The two years the Bucs had winning records, the defenses were mediocre but avoided being god awful. Both defenses in 2010 and 2016 had awful moments but they were not disaster like all the other losing Bucs teams.

 

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I'm not sure anyone has claimed that the QB is our primary problem.  Replacing him isn't fixing the team.  But I don't see the point in paying franchise QB money and investing more time into a journeyman quality QB when there is little upside  (unlikely he'll improve significantly).  Again, why did it take him half a year to distinguish himself from Fitztragic, and why did Fitz with a handful of games have nearly as many wins over those 2 seasons?

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3 hours ago, fanofdabucs said:

Which NFL team would trade their current starting QB for a QB in his prime in Winston? 

Name 5.

Let me help.

Atlanta? Nope

New Orleans?  Ha

Carolina? No

Rams? Nope

Seattle?  Nah

Arizona? No

San Fran? Nope

Minnesota?  No

GB? Not

Detroit? No

Chicago?  Maybe, maybe not

Philly? Nope

Giants? No

Dallas? Nope

Washington? Maybe

Miami? Yes, but they probably would rather draft one next year.

NE? Ha

Buffalo? No

NY? Doubt it

Cincy? Probably 

Cleveland?  No

Baltimore? No

Pittsburgh? Doubtful 

Denver? Yes

LA? No

Raiders? No

KC? No

Houston? No

Jags? Maybe 

Indy? No

Tennesse?  Maybe

He still has some games to prove himself. Starts Sunday! 

Go Jaboo!

 

 


I see you’ve declined to answer the question.  I guess your initial point really was nonsense. 

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He had his own issues after the first two weeks that showed what the Bucs D can do to you. He was the starter during the Bucs 38-3 first half disaster.  No running game and No D, the Bears beat up on him. I am not going to blame him for the 38 points the Bucs D gave up but when teams have you in a hole, the better teams are going to make 

He had a Washington game with 4 Turnovers with 3 of the 4 turnovers his in a 16-3 loss to Washington.  Considering how unusual for the Bucs D to hold a team to 16 points despite a minus 4 in turnovers, it was a winnable game. Of course Catazano was sucking that day kicking FGs.

Like Jameis he had games where he played well where the D could do not enough. As a matter of fact it is the book of Fitz Magic's entire career which is the same book on Winston. Fitz can play well in spots but long term he is not the guy. One winning season in 14 years as a starter for 8.

Oh if you are talking about the 2-1 he was in 2018. He beat Josh McCown of the Jets. The Josh McCown  who was part of that awesome 2-14 Bucs team that helped draft Jameis. The other guy he beat was Jay Cutler at Miami.. The Bucs nearly lost that game in Miami when they knocked Jay Cutler out of the game. Matt Moore came off the bench in the second half and tied the score. Fitz did get the game winning FG with 4 seconds left (only points he got in the second half). Then the Jets special teams tried the lateral play and FAU's alum Adarius Taylor got a TD fumble on the last play of the game.

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7 hours ago, The Rich McKay Conspiracy said:

You must be new to this forum and Bucs fandom in general. 

First time poster. :)

I have to say that this thread hammers home that previous point some other poster made about not drafting eary 1st round QBs (in general).  We're 5 years in, and the conclusions seems to be:
1. We can't really evaluate the QB because the supporting cast sucks to the extent that after 5 years of mediocrity, we're thinking of 6.
2. The team never grabs a legitimate plan B.
3. Unless the supporting cast is up to speed, it doesn't matter who our QB is.
4. The drafted QB is supposed to be the team's savior bringing it up from the ashes like a Phoenix when the team has much deeper problems (the 3 Nawmigos).

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7 hours ago, The Rich McKay Conspiracy said:


I see you’ve declined to answer the question.  I guess your initial point really was nonsense. 

Your question was nonsense.

The fuck are you babbling on about now?? This was my first post in this thread.

Agreed. We are close.

Just need....

A QB

3 CBs

2 Safeties 

RT

HC

OC

DC 

GM

President of Football Ops

New Owners

Ok that's my glass completely empty with air take.

 

Here is my glass mostly full of shit take. 

The offense is fine and scoring a bunch. Draft a RT to replace Dotson. Draft a QB.

The defensive front 7 is pretty good. The secondary is very young and Dean, SMB and Carlton will get much better by years end. Sign a vet CB to replace VH3.

Arians and his staff get a pass for year one and will bring in the 3-5 players they need to replace this offseason. 

Next year is THE year!

Go Buc 2020!

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What I have said, is that despite the shitty secondary play, the coaching issues, the lack of a consistent running game...that with better QB play (and a made FG) we are 5-3 or 6-2.

49ers game Win with better QB play

Panthers Win with better QB play

Titans Win with better QB play

We also took Seattle to OT in Seattle. 

The secondary is a HUGE issue and a mess. But that's five players, mostly young guys in Davis, Dean, SMB, Edward's, Stewart. CB, IMO is one of the my difficult transitions from college to the NFL. I expected them to struggle. 

The QB is in his prime and is in year 5. 

THE QB ISNT THE ONLY PROBLEM. BUT HE'S THE ONE IN HIS FINAL YEAR AND TRYING TO EARN A NEW CONTRACT AND PROVE HE'S A FRANCHISE QB.

To this point, he has been the same as he has been his entire career...inconsistent and doesn't take care of the football. 

Please stop with the bullshit that somehow the lack of defense is the reason why he plays the way he does. It's complete bullshit, no matter how much you stomp you feet about it.

Fear not, he may have finally turned the corner last week and is going to start playing more consistently from here on out.

 

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2 hours ago, fanofdabucs said:

What I have said, is that despite the shitty secondary play, the coaching issues, the lack of a consistent running game...that with better QB play (and a made FG) we are 5-3 or 6-2.

49ers game Win with better QB play

Panthers Win with better QB play

Titans Win with better QB play

We also took Seattle to OT in Seattle. 

The secondary is a HUGE issue and a mess. But that's five players, mostly young guys in Davis, Dean, SMB, Edward's, Stewart. CB, IMO is one of the my difficult transitions from college to the NFL. I expected them to struggle. 

The QB is in his prime and is in year 5. 

THE QB ISNT THE ONLY PROBLEM. BUT HE'S THE ONE IN HIS FINAL YEAR AND TRYING TO EARN A NEW CONTRACT AND PROVE HE'S A FRANCHISE QB.

To this point, he has been the same as he has been his entire career...inconsistent and doesn't take care of the football. 

Please stop with the bullshit that somehow the lack of defense is the reason why he plays the way he does. It's complete bullshit, no matter how much you stomp you feet about it.

Fear not, he may have finally turned the corner last week and is going to start playing more consistently from here on out.

 

Who was supposed to give is this better QB play. Ryan Griffith? San Francisco beat the crap out of Jared Goff and  the Panthers Kyle Allen. Both of them are better than Ryan Griffith, The only bad game Kyle Allen had in his 6 starts was against the Niners.  Frankly if the Bucs started getting close, Kyey Allen  would have kept throwing and picking the Bucs apart. Frankly if the Giants had not tried to run the ball so much in the first half, they would not have been down 28-10. What scares me is the one team that has beaten SF's defense is Arizona QB Kyle Murray. What is the over and under on Murray picking the Bucs D apart esp if Carlton Davis who is awful is replaced by Dean who played even worse.

Titans have  a pretty good defense and the picks in that game if you believe Arians was the WRs ran the wrong routes. Doubting Arians is at least reasonable giving  some of the futile challenges he made (one in the Titans game was very costly) and saying the Bucs secondary was fixed. His two timeouts in a row should have cost us the Panthers win. Maybe we should pass on Tua or Burrows since we have Ryan Griffith on staff who would have beaten the Titans, 49ers and Kyle Allen and the Panthers. Reminds me of the people at the old SPT that wanted Shaun King to be the starter over Brad Johnson.

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34 minutes ago, rook said:

Who was supposed to give is this better QB play. Ryan Griffith? San Francisco beat the crap out of Jared Goff and  the Panthers Kyle Allen. Both of them are better than Ryan Griffith, The only bad game Kyle Allen had in his 6 starts was against the Niners.  Frankly if the Bucs started getting close, Kyey Allen  would have kept throwing and picking the Bucs apart. Frankly if the Giants had not tried to run the ball so much in the first half, they would not have been down 28-10. What scares me is the one team that has beaten SF's defense is Arizona QB Kyle Murray. What is the over and under on Murray picking the Bucs D apart esp if Carlton Davis who is awful is replaced by Dean who played even worse.

Titans have  a pretty good defense and the picks in that game if you believe Arians was the WRs ran the wrong routes. Doubting Arians is at least reasonable giving  some of the futile challenges he made (one in the Titans game was very costly) and saying the Bucs secondary was fixed. His two timeouts in a row should have cost us the Panthers win. Maybe we should pass on Tua or Burrows since we have Ryan Griffith on staff who would have beaten the Titans, 49ers and Kyle Allen and the Panthers. Reminds me of the people at the old SPT that wanted Shaun King to be the starter over Brad Johnson.

I don't want Winston to be replaced this year. He needs to start every game in his last year of his contract so that an informed decision can be made after the season.

My point was...once again, that had they had better QB play in those games I mentioned, they probably win.

I'm not saying that QB is on the roster, he's not. Therein lies the problem...NOT the ONLY problem, clearly, but one that needs to be fixed.

Who said they thought Griffen was the answer or should be the starter???

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Arians has been saying Winston is the guy for the job since he was hired. I think there are a few reasons why. 

First off, he knew that they had to give Winston this year to prove his worth for a new contract. He knew that Winston was going to be the only option on the roster at QB. 

I also think he truly believed in his QB whisperer BS and that he could fix the turnover issues.

Lastly, it was the right thing to say and do, giving Winston full support and confidence this year. 

 

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2 hours ago, fanofdabucs said:

I don't want Winston to be replaced this year. He needs to start every game in his last year of his contract so that an informed decision can be made after the season.

My point was...once again, that had they had better QB play in those games I mentioned, they probably win.

I'm not saying that QB is on the roster, he's not. Therein lies the problem...NOT the ONLY problem, clearly, but one that needs to be fixed.

Who said they thought Griffen was the answer or should be the starter???

I am a Rays fan but I have to watch the team bring up the best Triple A talent available as they do not have money to sign any one good for more than one or two years. In the salary cap era of football, two good QBs is almost an impossibility.  A number of teams are stuck with a QB they do not care for as  their contract makes it difficult to get a decent replacement. Panthers struck gold with Kyle Allen just at the right time with Cam's contract.

I am pretty sure Winston will not be re-signed but the prospect of Andy Dalton or even a Cam Newton is not thrilling either. Matt Moore would have been a good transition player until the draft but Andy Reid grabbed him. I am not sure Moore would have wanted to come here despite the excellent WR corp.

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47 minutes ago, rook said:

I am a Rays fan but I have to watch the team bring up the best Triple A talent available as they do not have money to sign any one good for more than one or two years. In the salary cap era of football, two good QBs is almost an impossibility.  A number of teams are stuck with a QB they do not care for as  their contract makes it difficult to get a decent replacement. Panthers struck gold with Kyle Allen just at the right time with Cam's contract.

I am pretty sure Winston will not be re-signed but the prospect of Andy Dalton or even a Cam Newton is not thrilling either. Matt Moore would have been a good transition player until the draft but Andy Reid grabbed him. I am not sure Moore would have wanted to come here despite the excellent WR corp.

But Rook, the Panthers are in the position that they're in because they were smart and proactively went after a Kyle Allen in 2018 as a undrafted FA and then drafted Will Grier this year.

The Bucs tend to put all their eggs in one basket eith QBs and almost seem afraid to hurt their ego by bringing in additional talent at the position. 

As for those guys you mentioned, I want nothing to do with them. And that was one of my fears with hiring BA. He most likely doesn't want to draft a rookie to develop and if Winston isnt signed, they probably will go the old vet route.

Again, if they are in position to draft Tua or Borrows and pass because of Winston being signed or a Andy Dalton, I'll be done.

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8 hours ago, fanofdabucs said:

What I have said, is that despite the shitty secondary play, the coaching issues, the lack of a consistent running game...that with better QB play (and a made FG) we are 5-3 or 6-2.

49ers game Win with better QB play

Panthers Win with better QB play

Titans Win with better QB play

We also took Seattle to OT in Seattle. 

The secondary is a HUGE issue and a mess. But that's five players, mostly young guys in Davis, Dean, SMB, Edward's, Stewart. CB, IMO is one of the my difficult transitions from college to the NFL. I expected them to struggle. 

The QB is in his prime and is in year 5. 

THE QB ISNT THE ONLY PROBLEM. BUT HE'S THE ONE IN HIS FINAL YEAR AND TRYING TO EARN A NEW CONTRACT AND PROVE HE'S A FRANCHISE QB.

To this point, he has been the same as he has been his entire career...inconsistent and doesn't take care of the football. 

Please stop with the bullshit that somehow the lack of defense is the reason why he plays the way he does. It's complete bullshit, no matter how much you stomp you feet about it.

Fear not, he may have finally turned the corner last week and is going to start playing more consistently from here on out.

 

The problem with "better" is what does that mean and more importantly who does that mean? While Jameis' turnovers are a problem, other guys wouldn't be able to put up the scoring the Bucs manage to come up with with Winston. Without going game by game, as a for instance, put a different guy in there and even a really good different guy and the Bucs don't win the Rams game. So it works both ways and I think that believing this team would be 6-2 or 5-3 with a different QB who isn't an elite guy is just incorrect.

I'm not at all looking to bring him back but I think the projections without him are not realistic.

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4 hours ago, Gulf Shore Steve said:

The problem with "better" is what does that mean and more importantly who does that mean? While Jameis' turnovers are a problem, other guys wouldn't be able to put up the scoring the Bucs manage to come up with with Winston. Without going game by game, as a for instance, put a different guy in there and even a really good different guy and the Bucs don't win the Rams game. So it works both ways and I think that believing this team would be 6-2 or 5-3 with a different QB who isn't an elite guy is just incorrect.

I'm not at all looking to bring him back but I think the projections without him are not realistic.

I'm in full agreement with this.

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11 hours ago, bucs63 said:

With all this insightful analysis, are we reaching the conclusion or  acknowledging the team would still suck ass if Brady, Mahomes, or Brees were the QB?

That's some fuckened shit right there.

For some, I think they believe with any of those QBs, we would still be were we are. I disagree. 

No QB is going to fix the secondary, we can all agree with that. It's been awful this year. 

Some think the oline has been bad. I couldn't disagree more and I wonder if people who think that watch other teams play. QBs on every team get sacked, take hits, and get pressured. One thing I can't stand about Winston is how long he holds the ball. A good portion of sacks he takes have nothing to do with the oline. Of course at times guys get beat and give up sacks, but it happens to all teams. 

The running game. Go back and watch the games this year. The defenses look like they're playing against a rookie QB at times. 7, 8 and even 9 guys in the box. They are daring Winston to throw down the field. No oline can run block when there are that many guys dedicated to stopping the run. I blame some of that on play calling as well. 

So while I agree that the secondary is a huge problem and hard to win games with, I disagree with the "shitty" oline bullshit. 

And if we are going to give Winston a pass for the things the team lacks, you have to also acknowledge that he has maybe the best 1-2 punch at WR in the league. 

Look, I know it sounds like a hate Winston, but I just want him to be a consistently good QB. He's not and I don't think it has anything to do with the defense or the oline. Unfortunately I think it's just who he is and always has been.

But maybe he figures it all out these last 8 games and it starts to click. 

Go Bucs!

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16 hours ago, Gulf Shore Steve said:

The problem with "better" is what does that mean and more importantly who does that mean? While Jameis' turnovers are a problem, other guys wouldn't be able to put up the scoring the Bucs manage to come up with with Winston. Without going game by game, as a for instance, put a different guy in there and even a really good different guy and the Bucs don't win the Rams game. So it works both ways and I think that believing this team would be 6-2 or 5-3 with a different QB who isn't an elite guy is just incorrect.

I'm not at all looking to bring him back but I think the projections without him are not realistic.

I guess that's what makes watching Winston play the most frustrating. He has games like the Rams game where he looks like a number one overall pick and elite. Then games like the Panthers and 49ers where he looks awful. Then he has a game like Tennesse  where there are some decent moments and then awful. It's the type of play you'd from a very talented rookie. 

Part of me, at this point, I just want to see him turn the corner and play consistently well, or just suck. 

If this were year 1 or 2, we could live with that. But a decision has to be made on whether to keep him or not, and at this point I think if anything, he has shown he cant be counted on from week to week. 

He has 8 games left to prove otherwise. Tomorrow should be a good start playing at home on a beautiful day against a pretty shitty defense. 

Go Bucs!

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